The Estabishment Options

[mothman]

I just read something on another forum that sparked my mind and wanted to share here. This is not a direct reaction to 24HG or Mt Doom , but thoughts and opinions on the issues.

We are all part of "the Establishment". Meaning, when it comes to scenario paintball, even tho there is authority, and establishments, we all contribute to it and shape it. That is why I've held myself back from posting my own rants on here. I don't want to be the only voice. I don't want to be seen as a know it all. So, it's open ground, start moving dirt, change things around, voice your opinion, please, it's been too quiet around these parts (of the internet).

So, I read something today from Ghost mob and he had to say this

for ALL PLAYERS who walk onto a Paintball Field... When you sign that Insurance Waiver, you are stating that you fully understand and comprehend the full risks of the game, and are PLAYING AT YOUR OWN RISK! Yes bad things can happen, but if your willing to shoot at someone else, expect them to fully be willing to do the same to you.

I never have given the waiver much thought. I've heard alot about it, what it covers, what it doesnt or cant cover, but thats not my point. What interst me is, we all sign an agreement. Id say, part of that agreement is to know, to have read, and attended all meetings about the rules of the game and the field. That waiver should, if it doesnt, state our agreement to abide by the rules at all cost. What gives me concern is, if that is the closest point of signing on the dotted line about our responsibilities, then I think it should be made apparent verbally to the customer what he is signing. Dont get me wrong, Im not cracking on MT Doom or Paintballs N More. But since this place is the pioneer of running a safe game, I think when players hand in that signed waiver, they should be told briefly, they are responsible for reading rules, attending orientation, and to abide by the rules or else.

Another thing about the establishment, which we, the players , are apart of, At NO TIME should we consider it our right to make our own rules or break them when we are confronted with players that are breaking the rules. IF you dont think you have a breaking point, then guess again. We (players) all do. And we think, that just because we arnt in broad view of spectators and such, that we can break the rules to make a point to someone by either overshooting, yelling, cursing, fighting, etc. We (players) are not the end of the line, those in authority are. The refs, the producer, the field owner, these people have final say. They decide who goes and who stays. It's our signed responsibility to confront, advise, inform, and work with the authorities. If we can't have a bottom line, then its just choas. So, not only do players need to realize who decides whats to be done about rule breakers, but the authorities need to realize how much we need them to maintain order and cooperation. Players need to be able to trust fully in the fields authorities so that when something bad goes down and someone is needed, the authorities are the ones contacted. This doesnt throw off policing ourselves, but when the law of the land is needed, we should trust the law.

I might have more to add here, but this is all I could muster at this time. I posted this in the forum so it could be discussed.

[mothman]

Let me clarify myself alittle further. This incident didn’t happen at MT Doom or any 24HG game that I know, but it happened, and it happens all the time in scenario paintball.

A young player is in a firefight and gets hit and runs back to the medic that is there. He gets wiped off and he returns to battle. He does this several times. Finally the crew that is moving up on him, gets real close and unloads on him , he feels he is overshot so he keeps shooting back, this doesn’t end till he is covered head to toe in paint. Now, this is a true story. Who is wrong? Both sides.

The young player is wrong for not reading the rules. You don’t walk to your medic. The crew is wrong for assuming that they are just in shooting him up for either disobeying rules on medics, or just not understanding he is using a medic. So the crew decides to take the matters in their own hands. The young player is more wrong for jumping off a bridge when he sees others doing it. So the young player goes back and complains to the field owner, and so does the crew and the field owner makes the wrong choice of disciplining the young kid with a 2 hour detention, but lets the crew go unpunished.

This kind of thing happens all the time and is a common cause of accused cheating and misuse of the game. The more players and staff is aware of these types of problems, and to act on them in a proper form in the future, the better our games will be, and the better example we will set.

One suggestion I’ve heard from the refs if they aren’t around and you’re in a bad situation is to lay down your marker and go get the number from the player card of the accused and report the incident to the refs and staff. That sounds better than being irresponsible.

[Brian Pirkle]

I added this last. Now that I look back on this, I really didn’t add much to this topic.



I can't really comment on the 24HG held at Doom (although I think Jack does I great job during the briefing, going over the rules) But I can comment on the Normal games that are held at Doom.

This is more of a guess here, but about 80% of the people that come to doom are Private groups. This simple means that these people have rented the whole field and ref for there self’s. In turn this means I normal have a lot of new people that don't have a clue what paintball is about. I normal had out waivers to the first 4-5 people in the shop (that’s all it can really hold at a time) I do a quick briefing of what a wavier is, and what it is not. Ok fast forward after everyone is signed in. I gather all the people outside in one location, and make sure they are all there. I then go over the long safety list, rule, goggles, storms, alien invaders, all that. If you can think of something Doug has a rule for it. Some times it’s boring and long winded, especially when you have question. Must of the groups at Doom are small, 10-30 or so, so keeping an eye of people is easy, and I normal have one or two other people to help me.

I and my refs are the nicest people in the word, till you break a rule. I think a lot of rule breaking could be solved if you just had a ref that is willing to do something. I know I can't be the only one that has witnessed a fight or argument break out and a ref just stand there and watch. So what happens people figure this is the norm here, so it must be the norm at all paintball fields. Go to myspace, or youtube type in paintball and chat. Watch some of the refs, they just don't care. I even have one video of a local field where an adult player pushes a ref tiring to call him out, and about 4 other refs just stand there watching. Before anyone asks, sorry I can’t give you the video. I promised the guy that gave it to me I would not.

As for the 3rd and 4th Sundays of the moth when we have walk on play. We are really lucky at Doom to have so many wonderful players. Try breaking a rule, you will have no less then half the players telling you not to. I am proud to say that the regulars at doom look out for others, and they are the reason it is such a safe place to play. Just this last Sunday, which was the 4th Sunday we had about 10 new players, and about 8 regulars. Honestly it was like having 8 playing refs. As I was paint checking a player I looked down to see Dazed at the net reminding new players to plug there markers before they left.


Ok I got side tracked really bad as I did to comment on the kid getting over shot, he was at fault, the other side was at fault, the ref was at fault (if one was there), other plays were semi at fault (If I see someone breaking a rule when im playing, I ask them what there doing)

I guess this turned more into why im proud of Mt. Doom and its players. Oh well

[Angry Iron]

OK heres one on me. I was at a big game (not going to say which one) when me and a player were snapping on each other from about 15 yards away. After about 20 shots each I got lucky and hit him in the mask on the left side of his lense. He pulled in for about 10 sec. and then came out blazing and running towards my bunker with the hit still on him. I was yelling check your mask when he went wide to my right and layed into me. I swung and layed right back into him. We both emptyed our hoppers on each other and he reached for a pod thats when I yelled that I would beat him to death if he pods up and opens up again. When the refs got to us we were in each others face with our guns on the ground just waiting for the other to make contact. The refs got us apart and the guy was cursing me like crazy and I was having a hard time keeping from swinging on him. He then started cursing the refs and there was one ref thats the nicest guy you will ever meet but looking at him you know you don't want to piss him off. This guy was put out of the game and told to leave and I got a ref punch. I was in the wrong for what I did but at the moment all I was thinking about was stopping this guy from shooting me and my temper took over from there.

[fallout11]

I've had similar experiences (yes, plural) to Angry Iron's in the past, sad to say.

One of my personal favorites happened at the Paintballs and More field (Dalton), during our first "old school thugs" game (October, 2004).
A group of Crips had done a drive by on the Blood hangout (base) via golfcart, and stormed out of the carts to assault the remaining base defenders. One grown adult gent (I'm being nice) stood behind a small bunker and took a couple of shots at me from 15 yards out or so. I returned fire and hit him square on the right goggle lens, completely occluding it. I then swung on to another target, but seconds later was shocked to find I was still under fire from this guy as another shot from him whizzed past. I yelled at him "your hit on the googles", which should have been apparent, but he kept firing, so I sought cover and replied back "keep doing that and I'm going to have to shoot you again!". He fired again, so I goggled him a second time, this time square on the left goggle lens area.

That definitely should have put an end to it, but.....
What happened next amazed both myself and the other players who witnessed it.

The guy REMOVED HIS MASK, and once again proceeded to fire at me! Completely maskless! In the middle of a base assault.
At this point half a dozen people, including some of his own teammates and a few dead players in the Blood dead box, starting screaming at him to stop and put his mask back on, which he finally did after firing 2-3 more rounds. It took that long for the nearest ref (on the golf cart) to run over and jump on the guy.

Afterward, he explained to the ref and all present that "he couldn't see to shoot", which is why he took off his mask.
Holding it up, the lens was completely covered in yellow paint.
Duh!
Stupid is as stupid does?

[mothman]

Exactly, exactly! These are the kinds of examples I'm talking about. Great example by fallout, how can you top that. I'm sure someone can. Angry Iron, great example of what experienced players face out there. We all make mistakes. What makes us human is the ability to learn from them and move on.

Which is why I'm making this plea. I didn't give the thread a goal or action to take but it implies one and I should state it. The goal is to find a way for experienced players and field staff to work together when faced with total ignorance of the rules, a break down of the game, or real bad situations. Experienced players need some fail safes so they themselves dont get pulled into the drama thats unfolding before them. Experienced players need some code of conduct for times when refs are scarace or things are happening too quickly. Field staff needs catch points for people knowing the rules like the waiver, the orientation, refs advice, etc. And 24Hourgames and Mt Doom does this exceptionally. But, their refs cant be everywhere, and one day it could be faced with a 400 person game. Our players, the wrecking crew, does goto other places, so we allso need the tools to bring with us that which is right and good for the sport to others games. I want the wrecking crew to be the virus of good sportsmanship in the paintball community.

Brian, I think your right, Mt Doom does have its bases covered but remember, field staff is sorta like government, they cant do everything for the players. We need all our experienced players on the field equiped with the knowledge of how to deal with out of line actions. Again, this isnt a pressing matter, nothing bad is happening at Mt Doom or 24HG, its just some self preservation action for when bad things happen, and they do from time to time, place to place.

Be thinking all.

[ATL Phoenix]

I wrote this long reply up and all I could do was delete it and respond with "I feel like we are kicking a dead dog". This isnt the first time we have discussed this and wont be the last but until the first game is played with no complaints this will be a topic that will continue to plague our sport just like many other tpoics.

[mothman]

I wrote this long reply up and all I could do was delete it and respond with "I feel like we are kicking a dead dog".

How come?

Yeah, I don't feel like I'm wanting there to be a perfect game. If there was, you would almost question if the enforcement of rules by staff and players was too intrusive almost crushing the life out of the game. That is no fun. I'm talking about percentages,and to cut down on stand-up players giving up their game to insensitive jerks. I'm talking about keeping good honest players that are good for the sport from being broken by one player or team that wont stop till everyone feels the heels of their boots. I'm working on non violent, smart ways for experienced players to deal with the impossible without undermining the reffing staff or field personel.

I did explain what I'm doing, but I'm not about debating if anything can be done. I'm over that. I'm onto seeking solutions that work better than doing nothing. Its the game I love to play and I feel its better values need my support. Future post will have my suggestions for standing up to rule breakers.

[24HourGames]

It all starts with somebody being either CHILDISH or ADULT. A child retaliates. An adult steps back, not losing his cool, and figures out a way to deal with the situation.

NOBODY is "the law" on the field, but you'd have a damn hard time proving it... People get ass-hurt about some guy not playing by the rules, so they IMMEDIATELY respond by breaking any and every rule themselves. CHILDISH. No ifs ands or buts - - - CHILDISH.

We've said it a MILLION times. Take a mental picture of the offending person. EVERYBODY out there looks "different" - even 10 guys all wearing camo! One is tall, one is short, one is fat, one is skinny, one has brown shoes, one has black shoes, one's toting a tippman, one's toting a purple gun. YOU take this information TO A REF - You're then IMMEDIATELY tied into a NETWORK of at least eight to ten people on the field and at least two people at the bases that can look for "A short skinny guy in camo with a purple gun". A network of refs ...... A pissed off player ....... A network of refs .... A pissed off player. Gee, I wonder which one is more effective??

In your example, in every example, think about what ANYBODY being the bigger man would have solved.

E V E R Y T H I N G

Now, think about what gets solved when you retailiate...

N O T H I N G

Even if you get your moment in the sun of stitching some guy up to "prove" that you're right, what have you REALLY gained? Nothing.... Past the story you get to tell, you get nothing. Past his welts, he gets nothing. Only childish behavior on top of childish behavior...


Now, in every example, imagine if the offending party is set aside, told what he did wrong, and told that there's now 10 guys ON HIS ASS for the remainder of the game to make sure that he's playing right. Everybody's happy. Everybody's informed. Nobody's ass-hurt.



Point blank, act your freaking age...................

[ATL Phoenix]

^
l
l
l

Hoops back with his wall-o post... LOL

I agree with this, I have issues with holding mature at times, I always want to go for the throat (cant wipe that) but I agree... we all need to just chill.

[mothman]

Now, in every example, imagine if the offending party is set aside, told what he did wrong, and told that there's now 10 guys ON HIS ASS for the remainder of the game to make sure that he's playing right. Everybody's happy. Everybody's informed. Nobody's ass-hurt.

That's the new approach Hoop. It took a while to get to but, at least I finally got there. Now, when I'm in camp, and I hear stories, this is what I'll be promoting. I finally figured out, its not enough for me to try to be inline with the game, but its a curtisey to extend to others to be inline with the game, rules, etc. Allowing others to have mistakes and teach them afterwards is giving them something they can take beyond that day. For a experienced player to set his ego aside for a moment to allow it to happen, shows his worth and trust in his fellow players.

I dont know about your guys, but anything from here, just looks up.

[Papa Silver Back]

I have been blessed with family oriented regulars at Mt Doom who care about what first time players take home with them from a game (beside a few well placed welts that is). They are what makes life fun. Although it's probably not possible to do now-a-days; back in the olded days when a person cheated he got black-balled from future games. No big argument, no cussing him out or even a hard word just next time we called a game he got left out, on purpose. If he came anyway someone would take him aside and tell him why he was not invited but would still give him another chance. I don't think any of these guys cheated again because they realized they would soon not have anyone to play paintball with or anywhere to go play paintball. Believe me, field owners shared this information between us back then too. I have to admire some of the new airsoft guys who are coming to Doom because they totally rely on honesty to have any sort of stability in their sport. Apparently they do their best to maintain honor between others and their own squad and go out of their way to call hits on themselves. This came naturally in paintball at one time way back, but now days creative ways to cheat are bragged about by some (hence my aversion to Speedball Tourneys). If one thing from the early days of paintball coud be reborn it would be the honesty in calling a hit and then giving the shooter a congratulation would always be shouted out.

[porkchop]

I don't really get to mad on the field. if I do, I will hunt that person down and shoot him out, fairly and by the rules.
JUST DON'T MESS WITH MY KIDS. I think all the fathers would agree on that one.
If my kids break a rule, I want to know about it. I feel it would be unintentional though (the rule break)
I also find myself kinda watching out for other kids. Does anyone else do that?
I also think it would help to have posted at fields a rules list (in the pro shop, laminated outside, ect....). That way if there is one they might have forgotten or had a question about, they don't have to be embarrassed by asking, they can just go find out for themselves.
If it is a long list, like for a scenario, have a binder or 2 at the shop or somewhere where it can be reviewed/referenced by anyone.
That way, if there is a shouting match, they can just say well lets just go see in the book(announce where they will be in pregame).
Just an idea for though.

[WOODY]

Hell Hoop has printed them and handed them out to everyone at the game...
Results were not exceptional as we have people that can't read a banner 10'x10' that says "GOGGLES ON!"

[Dr. RiDiKuLoUs]

[Fallout's Post]

Wow...Darwin much?

We had a kid at the local field do this too. For some reason, he thought head shots didn't count. He's running a semi-pro style speedball set up and laying paint like it's free (probably because mommy and daddy were paying for it...). I'm using a Splatmaster. I'm in a firefight with him, doing my best snap shooting. I finally hit one right on his goggles. He keeps playing. I hit two more, completely covering the lens. He takes it off and keeps trying to shoot me. I lean out and fire, not knowing what exactly was going on. I whizzed one right by his head, then saw what was going on and called a cease fire. Most people stopped shooting and I stood up to walk over and remind the kid that masks stay on the face. Only when I stood up, the kid starts to unload his hopper on me. It wasn't until a few seconds later that he stopped, when one of his teammates started shooting him in the back/buttocks and telling the kid to get off the field. That's when the ref got there (We only have two refs because we rarely, if ever, actually need them) and kicked the kid off the field. Everyone was rather amazed I didn't run up and punch the kid (as I'm not always the most calm person around)

[24HourGames]

In that case, that kid needed a serious a$$ whooping from his parents and somebody to stand up to tell him he's not welcome back.